| Author |
Thread |
|
Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,174 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
|
 Posted - 2006/07/12 : 17:03:05
quote:
Originally posted by 1up:
speaking of encrypted music i think i may have a solution! or part of the solution.
if vinyls are loosing sales then the music industry might have to make a new music medium for the recordings of their work.
something more advanced than the typical cd. something that will play but the music cant be "stolen".
a remake of the vinyl? i dont know exactly. maybe vinyl needs to become popular again. maybe the turntables need to be redeveloped for the new demanding market. maybe record players need to be more simpler and cheaper so the market can actually afford to buy and use one.
really, this whole concept is hard to think up, but if we were to create a new medium, things just might change abit.
as Underloop said, how would that help? you'd just jack that 'new' machine to an stereo jack and record?
Slik, since your words are blurred (*****) out, did you mean Nap-ster? Curt Cobain died before P2P started to piss Labels off, so no, Nirvana didnt do anything, but Metallica UTTERLY hated Nap-ster (I think most of you guys have seen all those Metallica VS Nap-ster flash movies ;) )
__________________________________
---------------------------------------------
Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
---------------------------------------------
Alert moderator 
Edited by - Samination on 2006/07/12 17:04:58 |
slik_stylez
Junior Member
United Kingdom
120 posts
Joined: Feb, 2005
|
Posted - 2006/07/12 : 17:09:45
Ah yes, it was Metallica...my bad...
How did they go about shutting it down, if they did?
Alert moderator
|
Chris Goldfinger
Senior Member
United Kingdom
311 posts
Joined: May, 2006
|
Posted - 2006/07/12 : 17:38:06
they maybe shut nap-ster down but the knowledge i have of certain p2p's is limited but i'm led to believe such programs as ka-zaa there is no central server and home pc's are picked at random when connecting therefore the servers are always changing, imo if that is right theres no way there going to stop it
another example is e-mule, i have used this occasionally over the space of a few years and as anyone that uses this will tell you once one of the servers goes down there two new one ready to take it place.
Bit torr-ent sites go down constantly but again thers always more ready to pop up as soon as that happens
then theres usenet imo that ain't ever going to get shut down, i don't even think it would be possible
say they some how managed to shut down all the above then you still have FTP's. It would be impossible to stop people from using these!!
basically downloading music, films, games or whatever is never going to stop!!!!
Although i personnal buy vinyl (and loads of it) if i wasn't a dj if i'm honest i probably wouldn't pay for my tunes either. Why spend £15 on a album when i can get it for nothing, it would also be a lot quicker to d/l than actually buy it, an example of this would be bonkers 16 i could d/l this in 10 mins max where as for me to go to the shop and buy it it would take me more than 10 mins to get there.
Also another point on this subject that no one else has mention....
Record sales are maybe poor and going to get worse and everyone keeps going on about those producers stopping making music, but has no one stopped to think how much each of these producers are making from other sources.
Scott Brown for example how many dj set is he booked for each year? how much do you think he get paid for each one? if he was to stop producing he wouldn't be in such demand, so therefore in that sense if he stops producing hes going to lose some serious money
this is just my opinon but i feel theres a few valid points there
Alert moderator
Edited by - Chris Goldfinger on 2006/07/12 17:38:58 |
Underloop
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,895 posts
Joined: Mar, 2002
91 hardcore releases
|
Posted - 2006/07/12 : 17:39:39
It was pretty much the RIAA putting legal pressure on the Napster owners. Eventually they cut a deal.
__________________________________
"We don't stop playing because we grow old;
we grow old because we stop playing."
- George Bernard Shaw
Alert moderator
|
Orbit1
Senior Member
Australia
400 posts
Joined: Jul, 2006
|
Posted - 2006/07/13 : 01:27:16
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Goldfinger:
Although i personnal buy vinyl (and loads of it) if i wasn't a dj if i'm honest i probably wouldn't pay for my tunes either. Why spend £15 on a album when i can get it for nothing, it would also be a lot quicker to d/l than actually buy it, an example of this would be bonkers 16 i could d/l this in 10 mins max where as for me to go to the shop and buy it it would take me more than 10 mins to get there.
Thats the kind of attitude that I mean. Because people can't be bothered any more, vinyl sells less. Because vinyl sells less, people release less. Then the people who run record labels just don't know what to do.
If the mp3 sales were really up there competing with the vinyl sales then I'm sure that labels would convert over, but the fact is that sales everywhere are down, with the exception of big cd compilations.
__________________________________
http://myspace.com/orbit1dj
Alert moderator
|
fireflys
Starting Member
United States
5 posts
Joined: Apr, 2006
|
Posted - 2006/07/13 : 03:34:49
Alright, listen guys. Let me explain how my generation views piracy, since a lot of you seem to be scratching your heads and wondering where the money went.
Music is not a product. Music has never been a product. Before recorded media, musicians made money from performances, or not at all. The record is your product, not the data it contains. Now there is no record - only data.
There are two types of people still buying music; those who want the media itself, and those who are making a donation. Following this logic, there are three ways to increase sales: Improve the value of the media itself, decrease the cost, or convince more people of the need to donate.
But certain misguided people think they can increase sales by making the product worse. DRM'd audio is never going to have the same value as the same data in an unrestricted format that is available for free just about anywhere. This cuts out all of group 1 (buyers who want the media), and some donators who are trying to be honest yet keep getting screwed by proprietary formats that don't work half the time.
Music exists only in time, not in space. Sorry folks. In a world where information is freely and instantly exchanged, not everyone can make a living peddling information. The world is moving on without you, and we're not looking back.
By the way, I am a software developer (another industry based upon easily-pirated intangibles). I sell my time and my services, not the resulting bytes. I'm also a hobbyist producer.
Very few people can make money buying music - people do it for the enjoyment it brings them. Maybe it's time for artists to do the same...again.
Alert moderator
|
Orbit1
Senior Member
Australia
400 posts
Joined: Jul, 2006
|
Posted - 2006/07/13 : 09:10:23
^^^ Doesn't help the problem.
Record units aren't selling and labels are closing, that a problem. The people that run those labels need the income from those labels to survive, thats their food money.
Whats the solution? Mp3s are not selling anywhere near as many units as vinyl used to, so thats not the answer.
If you have a product regardless of what it is, and you depend on the sale of that product to get money to live, what are you going to do?
__________________________________
http://myspace.com/orbit1dj
Alert moderator
|
bulby_g
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
7,205 posts
Joined: Apr, 2004
430 hardcore releases
|
Posted - 2006/07/13 : 09:32:34
@ fireflys
Sorry don't agree with that. The track belongs to the producer who worked for days making it, whatever format it's in.
quote:
Taken from the dictionary:
PRODUCT
Something produced by human or mechanical effort or by a natural process.
The dictionary disproves your point I'd say.
If there were no full time producers the quality and amount of material would slow no end! Most bedroom producers can't afford to put in the time or get the cash to buy all the best studio equipment.
__________________________________
www.myspace.com/bulbyg
Alert moderator
Edited by - bulby_g on 2006/07/13 09:39:12 |
bulby_g
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
7,205 posts
Joined: Apr, 2004
430 hardcore releases
|
Posted - 2006/07/13 : 10:34:16
Taken from USH.NET for those that wanted to hear from a big label being affected.
quote:
Originally posted by BRISK[quote]
This is a duplicate post made on www.4ravers.com, a US based website who actively support illegal downloads. This is the original post made in the event that the original is modified in anyway:
I have been compelled to comment on this subject after it was brought
to my attention on my recent visit to America. I write with mixed
emotions; mainly disbelief at such small minded behavior at immature
and ignorant views.
Firstly, I would like to point out that at no time have I authorized
infringement of mine or any of my colleagues work; just because I
have not previously protested it does not imply my consent. I do not
have time to trawl the internet and chat forums from every country to
see whether people are offering my music for free, particularly in
the last couple of years I have had to work harder to try to combat
the lost revenue from record and album sales caused by illegal
downloads. This is my career, the very job that pays my bills and
feeds me and my family, as it does for the artists for whom I am
responsible, that are signed to my label and to whom I am legally
bound protect their work.
What many people fail to recognize is that it costs us to write music
both in monetary terms and time, just as anyone who works in a
garage, a restaurant etc. expects to get paid for the time the expend
whilst doing their job, it is not unfair that we get paid for our work.
To try to be philosophical about what is morally right or wrong, I am
afraid is not your place to make a decision about, the work is mine
and my colleagues and that decision can only be made by us, and all
of us see it as theft. We all work in this industry to try to give
you enjoyment at the weekends and to give you the pleasure that we
used to get from music when we were ravers, we often put up free
promotional live mixes and although many are grateful for this,
others take it for granted and want more.
The fact that the album has been purchased and then uploaded does not
make it right, it is illegal to copy work and distribute it, this
prevents others buying it and contrary to certain beliefs the income
from album sales and record sales is imperative, we have already
suffered a 90% drop in vinyl sales. To hear comments about wanting
to destroy the industry I find disgusting, this is nothing but
bitter, bitchy and immature behavior. If this continues at such a
rate it is unlikely that many of he underground dance genres such as
Hardcore will even exist in 1 or 2 years time, if that. If you truly
do want to kill the industry then your goal will be achieved.
There IS money being lost, unless you are doing this as a career and
you have worked in the industry you are not really in a position to
comment. Exposure is not in the question, in fact I would rather not
have the 'exposure' as it serves me no purpose whatsoever. I have been
DJing and producing for 20 years and have managed to get exposure
without someone blatantly and publicly raping my copyright. Although
you start out as a kid doing it for the love of it, you can no longer
can live with your parents etc, you grow up and live in the real
world with costs that have to be covered to be able to continue
writing music. It seems many of you think you can get through life
just purely on love of music, the harsh reality is, is this is not
the case. I am not sure if many of you are just young or you live a
very sheltered life, but the comments are very small minded and in
many cases arrogant. Producers and labels need a constant cash flow
in order to keep equipment up to date, to press and manufacture
products and as I mentioned before to be able to live and support
their families.
Psilo, with regards to the legal comments, my girlfriend is a music
lawyer specializing in the area of illegal downloads. The fact is
you are breaking the law not under file sharing but unlawfully
copying and distributing a copyright without permission. Needless to
say, I will be informing the relevant bodies over here. Whether
your mind can except it or not, it is killing the industry, and to
say that you support hardcore is bollocks to put it bluntly. All you
will seek to do is to get the site shut down and any other site that
you post any links on, which only results in you pissing everyone
off. If this is your goal, you really do have some deep seated
emotional issues that you need to resolve. Just because you have
spent money on music equipment, CDs etc it DOES NOT give you the
right to steal my work and my income that I have spent time and money
on creating. No matter what you say or how you try to justify it,
you are simply wrong a view that is supported by every artist and the
law. Perhaps your goal is actually just to try to antagonize people
and to get a response as many people seem to do in this day and age
on internet chat forums, if that is the case that is very sad.
Another common reason for people being so belligerent is often
jealousy, again this is very childish as you can do anything if you
put your mind to it and you want it badly enough, but this is not the
way to go about it. I guess even if the law does not reprimand you,
karma will and I am sure you will live a very difficult and bitter
existence.
For those of you who are actively supporting the scene, and
understand the struggle we face, in trying to continue doing what we
do, to be able to give you Hardcore; I wish to thank you from the
bottom of my heart and on the behalf of all my colleagues, you are
the reason that we love our job and want to do it for as long as
possible.
I'm sure many of you have got some smart arsed comments to make to
try to be funny or whatever, but save it for someone who cares. I
have purely posted a response so that those who wish to see the other
side of the argument, can do.
In closing, if we cannot afford to make music you will have nothing
to download anyway.
Brisk
__________________________________
www.myspace.com/bulbyg
Alert moderator
|
Jax
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
2,676 posts
Joined: Apr, 2005
|
Posted - 2006/07/13 : 12:56:53
"it is going to kill hardcore"
well if its already been stated that they dont make any money from sales why isnt it already dead? all thats going to happen, at worst, is they will have to release on cd's like psy trance
Alert moderator
|
Orbit1
Senior Member
Australia
400 posts
Joined: Jul, 2006
|
Posted - 2006/07/13 : 13:09:28
^^^ Close but no cigar. I think while Cd albums are making sales, and there are djs with those songs on promo that the general public doesn't have, the scene will still have some sort of life.
__________________________________
http://myspace.com/orbit1dj
Alert moderator
|
bulby_g
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
7,205 posts
Joined: Apr, 2004
430 hardcore releases
|
Posted - 2006/07/13 : 13:41:40
quote:
Originally posted by DJ_JaXoN:
"it is going to kill hardcore"
well if its already been stated that they dont make any money from sales why isnt it already dead? all thats going to happen, at worst, is they will have to release on cd's like psy trance
Because they want to keep it alive! The general impression you get is that the bigger labels are above breaking even at the mo but if things continue to get worse they wont continue to release. There not going to bother releasing singles on vinyl or cd's if there is no point in doing so, where's the sense in that? Sure CD's cost less but you can predict what the sales would be like from the MP3 ones so...
Compilation albums don't bring as much cash to artists as you'd like to think, most of it goes to Resist, MOS etc. Sure the scene may stay afloat in some form or another because of comps, bedroom producers and events but it will be a shell of what it was and you can say goodbye to most bedroom dj's and small events.
Basically it's the people who make the tunes that are telling they're going to stop if things don't improve so you all think they're lying or what? Most of them like other types of dance music even if they like hardcore more so end of the day they'll probably have to pack up and start to make something that has a bit more money in it (until that collapses because of piracy!).
__________________________________
www.myspace.com/bulbyg
Alert moderator
|
Underloop
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,895 posts
Joined: Mar, 2002
91 hardcore releases
|
Posted - 2006/07/13 : 14:05:00
The way I see it at the moment is that the only money is in performance. As Fireflys puts it in his (slightly flawed) argument, the money used to come from performance, and so it shall go back to performance. The way things are going right now this is what will happen. All labels will rely on the RaverBaby business model where their money comes from getting gigs, and they get gigs from having tunes that nobody else has (because they take so long to release them - if they release them at all). This has made the RBC the most sought after DJs in the scene, and also those with (probably) the highest income.
If the whole scene was like that, and no records got released as that was the only way that the label owners could keep their career (remember to these artists it is their career not just a part time job) is to stop releasing records and just use them to play out themselves as a performance. Kind of leaves the smaller DJs in the **** doesn't it! And so the scene evolves until it is made up purely of the Pete Tong's and Tiesto's of the Hardcore world. At least it would stop piracy as there would be nothing left to pirate.
__________________________________
"We don't stop playing because we grow old;
we grow old because we stop playing."
- George Bernard Shaw
Alert moderator
|
Chris Goldfinger
Senior Member
United Kingdom
311 posts
Joined: May, 2006
|
Posted - 2006/07/13 : 14:16:49
quote:
Originally posted by Underloop:
If the whole scene was like that, and no records got released as that was the only way that the label owners could keep their career (remember to these artists it is their career not just a part time job) is to stop releasing records and just use them to play out themselves as a performance. Kind of leaves the smaller DJs in the **** doesn't it! And so the scene evolves until it is made up purely of the Pete Tong's and Tiesto's of the Hardcore world. At least it would stop piracy as there would be nothing left to pirate.
Agreed this would stop most of the d/l, but anyone that does d/l tunes will be able to tell you that not all tunes have to be released to be able to find them.
I myself have d/l tunes before that ain't released and in the nfo attacted it has stated that the soure was a cdr or promo vinyl, so my point is if it came from a cdr surley that means that the producer has gave a copy to some dj to use in his set and hes uploaded it some where
An example of this would be "Judge Jules & Micheal Woods - So Special" this was floating about month before it was released on vinyl or cds (JJ tunes normally take as long as raverbaby tunes to be realeased) in the nfo it stated it was ripped from a cdr
Alert moderator
|
bulby_g
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
7,205 posts
Joined: Apr, 2004
430 hardcore releases
|
Posted - 2006/07/13 : 14:20:10
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Goldfinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Underloop:
If the whole scene was like that, and no records got released as that was the only way that the label owners could keep their career (remember to these artists it is their career not just a part time job) is to stop releasing records and just use them to play out themselves as a performance. Kind of leaves the smaller DJs in the **** doesn't it! And so the scene evolves until it is made up purely of the Pete Tong's and Tiesto's of the Hardcore world. At least it would stop piracy as there would be nothing left to pirate.
Agreed this would stop most of the d/l, but anyone that does d/l tunes will be able to tell you that not all tunes have to be released to be able to find them.
I myself have d/l tunes before that ain't released and in the nfo attacted it has stated that the soure was a cdr or promo vinyl, so my point is if it came from a cdr surley that means that the producer has gave a copy to some dj to use in his set and hes uploaded it some where
An example of this would be "Judge Jules & Micheal Woods - So Special" this was floating about month before it was released on vinyl or cds (JJ tunes normally take as long as raverbaby tunes to be realeased) in the nfo it stated it was ripped from a cdr
Yeah I guess they'd just stop giving any promos out to anyone other than their most trusted colleagues and friends. It would mean no one at all but the big producers would have full tracks.
__________________________________
www.myspace.com/bulbyg
Alert moderator
|
|
Printer friendly
