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electrogen
Average Member
United Kingdom
206 posts
Joined: Feb, 2012
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 Posted - 2012/10/08 : 17:20:24
I found some good literature online about layering. Really helped me. It explains that using group channels for bass drum layers and a seperate group for hats etc and eq them seperate and then as a group but using effects on the group only can help. It was posted on cubase forums but i cant find the page again to post it.
It also goes on to say that if you have a midi file bassline in c2 you could use the same file in the same key but with different instruments to make the sound phatter.
Does anyone else use this method for layering.
Previously i thought you used a sou d and raised the eq on that sound to make it bassier etc but i have since learned that you have to layer sounds in different frequencies to get a more natural sound.
My only problem i have is if you use a sub bass sound with eq accordingly set and a middle sou d and a high sound for your bassline, wouldnt that mean that in theory you cant use another sound in low middle or hi as them freqs are already taken
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Hard2Get
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Posted - 2012/10/08 : 22:36:34
It depends why you are laying. The process of layering to make something appear bigger would be different from layering things to add harmonics to make them sound more musical. The idea behind grouping sounds together that play the same part is to keep it simple, and also because they play the same part they should be treated as one from an engineering perspective. It's not a rule though, it depends what you are trying to achieve. What is right and wrong is completely subjective when it comes to engineering. One thing can be right in one situation and wrong in another, and even then it's only 'wrong' because it's not what you want.
Also, there is far more room in the frequency spectrum than for just one instrument per frequency. It's just that the more you add the more potential for clutter there is. Also, the brain can only appreciation a certain amount going on at any one time, so less is often more (but it means you have to get it right).
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Edited by - Hard2Get on 2012/10/08 22:39:06 |
DJ_FunDaBounce
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Colombia
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Posted - 2012/10/09 : 19:09:17
Both Eq'ing and layering are methods of adding and subtracting frequencies. Basically, when you boost , for example, a snare at 440hz your actually emphasizing Note A4 on a keyboard. As for layering, it's usually a combination of harmonics (which are still "frequencies" or "notes") which create a fuller sound. This is what Hard2Get means about it being subjective cuz at this point it's just a matter of taste, or even the happy (...and sometimes unintentional) result of experimenting, in search of that perfect tone.
one last thing. If you start out with the right sound (be it a synth patch or sample) the less you will be using eq to boost what you want to hear than you would with the "wrong" patch or sample.
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electrogen
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Posted - 2012/10/09 : 19:52:47
cheers im now even more confused lol so basically if a song is in key (E) then would you have to avoid the equivilant Hz when eq-ing
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Shades
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Posted - 2012/10/09 : 21:26:24
quote:
Originally posted by electrogen:
cheers im now even more confused lol so basically if a song is in key (E) then would you have to avoid the equivilant Hz when eq-ing
each note has it's own frequency, as do perc's, so doesnt matter what key its in, open an eq analyzer like fruity parametric eq2 (if you use FL) or bluecat if your using cubase as it's the best free one about http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_TripleEQ/ it'll show you on screen what freq is playing & help you with eq & clashing freqs.
*edit*
other's will no doubt say 'use your ears' but if you can use 2 of your senses, why not..... it'll help train your ears.
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Edited by - Shades on 2012/10/09 21:29:49 |
Hard2Get
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Posted - 2012/10/09 : 22:08:36
quote:
Originally posted by electrogen:
cheers im now even more confused lol so basically if a song is in key (E) then would you have to avoid the equivilant Hz when eq-ing
Definitely not. This is not how people generally EQ.
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DJ_FunDaBounce
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Posted - 2012/10/10 : 03:50:25
Layering is a common practice in production but one I admit not really having a proper grasp of til recently in the past few years. I used to play guitar in a band and the closest thing to layering was to double the guitar parts on a recording. Now think about it, if you just dial in a good guitar tone and leave it that, that could be a good thing. but say you play the part again with a slightly different tone(maybe by switching amps or guitars or fx) you will most of the time add something to the first un-accompanied version of my guitar example. That "something" will either be harmonic or in-harmonic. This is where I would say trust (and train!)your ears because if you want a chuck berry type tone (using the guitar example again) then you might not want to double the parts. A good contrasting example to chuck berry's tone would be Metallica's "wall of sound". They would often double the parts to make them sound bigger (Though towards the end of the 90's bands like Pearl Jam were all about one guitar take. getting it right from the start)
anyhoo, going back to layering in hardcore, I have often heard producers say that if you don't have the right sample to begin with just keep going till you find one that does feel right, and I can back this up with my own experience. Sound design is a complex aspect of production (...there are so many variables it's not even funny :P) but in my opinion I think starting with the right sound and actually making music is more important.
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http://www.brightspeedrecordings.com/
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Edited by - DJ_FunDaBounce on 2012/10/10 04:00:45 |
electrogen
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Posted - 2012/10/10 : 09:32:11
So basically if i use a open hat i can eq it is such a way to make it use more middle frequencies. By doing so i would have to boost the middle frequencies but without it peaking or squeeling. Also would you use the same technique to make layered sounds use the correct frequencies? Like some synths i use sound dull ever with top end boosting but with the above filter eq this isnt a problem. But i always was told never to boost try to cut instead. But i always find that sometimes it is sometimes needed to boost certain frequencies.
Also for a 3-4 layer lead using refx nexus, i could use a synth that is on the low end but not sub i could remove the bottom and the top and then boost middle to low freqs and use that as a layer with another sound that is mainly high octave and remove bottom and middle and then a layer with the chords using the full spectrum except the low lows.
And would this method for layering be suitable for pads too.
Also (sorry about this lol) if the layered leads are then exported as audio does that hyperthetically reset the eq so when i reload it into a different project i do t have to avoid the eq peaks i just used.
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electrogen
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Posted - 2012/10/10 : 09:37:33
Does anyone know any good filters too that can do envelope shaping. I dunno the precise term but it can make sounds sound plucky. Nexus does have the feature but not all sounds are enabled for the feature.
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electrogen
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Posted - 2012/10/10 : 14:02:08
quote:
Originally posted by Hard2Get:
Definitely not. This is not how people generally EQ.
But percussion and hats dont have to be in the same key as the song. Do they?
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electrogen
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Posted - 2012/10/10 : 14:04:01
quote:
Originally posted by Shades:
quote:
Originally posted by electrogen:
cheers im now even more confused lol so basically if a song is in key (E) then would you have to avoid the equivilant Hz when eq-ing
each note has it's own frequency, as do perc's, so doesnt matter what key its in, open an eq analyzer like fruity parametric eq2 (if you use FL) or bluecat if your using cubase as it's the best free one about http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_TripleEQ/ it'll show you on screen what freq is playing & help you with eq & clashing freqs.
*edit*
other's will no doubt say 'use your ears' but if you can use 2 of your senses, why not..... it'll help train your ears.
Thats one hell of a plugin. Feel like i have removed cotton wool from my ears lol.
You can isolate the freqs you need and the responses are wicked. Dunno how i managed on cubase's default eq.
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Hard2Get
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Posted - 2012/10/10 : 14:05:42
quote:
Originally posted by electrogen:
quote:
Originally posted by Hard2Get:
Definitely not. This is not how people generally EQ.
But percussion and hats dont have to be in the same key as the song. Do they?
No. It wouldn't make much difference either way as they are percussion sounds.
quote:
Does anyone know any good filters too that can do envelope shaping.
It's a basic function of pretty much all samplers.
quote:
but without it peaking or squeeling.
That shouldn't be difficult. If it is squealing then you're doing it wrong.
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Edited by - Hard2Get on 2012/10/10 14:07:38 |
electrogen
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Posted - 2012/10/10 : 14:43:25
It doesnt squeel but when im eqing hats trying to find the 'sweet spot' you do get squeeling if its peaked to high just like you get a droning sound if its too high at the bottom
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Shades
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Posted - 2012/10/10 : 17:07:34
quote:
Originally posted by electrogen:
So basically if i use a open hat i can eq it is such a way to make it use more middle frequencies. By doing so i would have to boost the middle frequencies but without it peaking or squeeling. Also would you use the same technique to make layered sounds use the correct frequencies? Like some synths i use sound dull ever with top end boosting but with the above filter eq this isnt a problem. But i always was told never to boost try to cut instead. But i always find that sometimes it is sometimes needed to boost certain frequencies.
if you need to change a sounds freq too much, your using the wrong sound or sample. if you open the bluecat eq and just play different perc samples you'll find one that occupies the freq you need or want, it's better to use the right sample than use one you like and have to eq it to fit the mix
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electrogen
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Posted - 2012/10/10 : 17:24:08
I meant for layering sometimes i use 2 claps and a snare, also loops
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Hard2Get
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Posted - 2012/10/10 : 19:07:09
quote:
Also (sorry about this lol) if the layered leads are then exported as audio does that hyperthetically reset the eq so when i reload it into a different project i do t have to avoid the eq peaks i just used.
Not at all. If you exported it with EQ on then it will always have that EQ on. If you then use it in another song though then yeah the EQ isn't going to be relevant to that song.
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