| Author |
Thread |
|
Ukronic
Junior Member
Denmark
89 posts
Joined: Sep, 2009
|
 Posted - 2010/02/18 : 11:01:44
Hi i found this..works pretty good!
Q: "How do I keep the kick from burying the bass (or bass burying the kick) in my mix?"
A: The most prevalent sonic signature of popular music is the blending of kick drum and bass. Since much of the power in a mix comes from the bass frequencies, the way kick and bass are handled is crucial from a mix perspective as well as a stylistic viewpoint. Generally objective is to have them work together as a unit, and yet still hear them individually. A typical problem is that the kick drum seems to get lost in the mix while the overall bottom sounds muddy. Assuming a good performance on each instrument, the perfect marriage of kick and bass rests mainly in equalization (or EQ as it is called). The frequency range of the bass and drums overlaps in the low frequency range through the low midrange. The attack of the bass is heard between 700 - 1000Hz, while the attack of the kick drum presents information at 3000 to 4000Hz.
A common trick to getting a full sound between kick and bass while retaining clarity is to boost the lows on the kick (60-80Hz) cut the low mids anywhere from 150Hz to 400Hz (sometimes called the mudrange) and boost the highs at around 3000Hz. This will provide a solid low end, remove some of the mud in the midrange and accentuate the attack of the kick pedal on the drum. For the bass, we do pretty much the opposite; cut the lows where you boosted them on the kick (60-80Hz) boost the bass at around 120 - 150Hz which will provide a full bass sound (while occupying the frequency space we made by cutting the kick drum in this range), and boost the highs at around 900Hz since bass also provides information in that range as well. In short, we are emphasizing the frequencies that are important to the sound of each, while cutting the frequencies where they can conflict. Try this technique. You'll get a full bottom with a clear thump with a defined attack in the kick and a clear, full bass.
Another important thing to keep in mind is what we said earlier about the most power in the mix coming from the low end; EQ is frequency dependent amplification, which means that we are boosting the power of a particular frequency. Too much boost can result in either distortion or less headroom in the mix for other instruments, so use it sparingly. If you're boosting a frequency in one instrument, you should cut that frequency in another instrument, as our kick and bass technique describes. Overall, EQ is most effective as a subtractive device, not additive.
http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/techtips/d--04/23/2004
Alert moderator 
Edited by - Ukronic on 2010/02/18 11:02:57 |
acidfluxxbass
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
5,000 posts
Joined: Apr, 2008
|
 Posted - 2010/02/18 : 11:41:47
Thanks :)
__________________________________
Aka Archefluxx
Soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/archefluxx
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/afbofficial
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/archefluxxuk
Alert moderator
|
Audio Warfare
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,047 posts
Joined: Mar, 2009
|
Posted - 2010/02/18 : 11:47:05
I'm guessing this isn't written with an off beat bass in mind tbh mate. Kick and Bass don't play at the same time therefore there wont be any clashing frequencies.
I think the main thing you should be looking at with a standard hardcore kick and bass is to make sure they are well separated. You will normally have to shorten the kick using the ADSR to stop it interfering with the bass. Be careful not to chop off the low end of the kick and just leave yourself with the clicky attack bit. Make sure you don't have the bass as an entire eighth; it will need to be shortened a bit and keep the release low, this will stop it running into the kick.
Remember to low cut anything that is eating up low end that shouldnt be. This will create more room for the kick and bass. Even things like Hi Hats could be filling up low end, you may not be able to hear it but it will effect the overall mix as it builds up!
You will no doubt need to do some EQ work to the bass. I often roll off the top end for example so its not too too bright. Try and get it as near as possible using the filter on the synth before resorting to EQ mind! I dont think you can really write a guide saying exactly where to cut and boost as any sound you use will be different.
You may already know all this but I'm bored at work so thought Id throw it up. :P
__________________________________
Listen to released and forthcoming Audio Warfare/Audio Weaponry tunes here:-
http://soundcloud.com/audio-warfare
Alert moderator
|
acidfluxxbass
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
5,000 posts
Joined: Apr, 2008
|
Posted - 2010/02/18 : 12:04:00
also at work bored, so I'll explain how I operate.
I try to use the low kick and high kick either side of the bass, which is cut off at about 80hz and then spikes a lil on the high end.
I've only started using the kick properly recently... By seperating them, in the short sections I feature an ongoing bassline and alternate perc pattern, they are nicely clarified...
Of course, I try to keep the kick short and punchy, so it doesnt clash with the bass stabs. I often shorten bass stabs aswell.
__________________________________
Aka Archefluxx
Soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/archefluxx
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/afbofficial
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/archefluxxuk
Alert moderator
|
Dante
Advanced Member
Vatican City State (Holy See)
1,185 posts
Joined: Dec, 2009
|
Posted - 2010/02/18 : 12:33:11
I always have my bass a step and a half long, I guess that's 3/32 in classical terms ;p and shorten the kick a little bit too, sometimes.
I generally don't EQ the kick much, maybe a little bit if there's any clash (that I detect, anyway). For bass I boost the sub and low mids, lower it a little at around 60-80 and cut away or seriously lower anything close to treble (thanks gaz ;)). I create my bass sounds with FL 3x Osc ;D
__________________________________
The "artist" formerly known as Nakk(enboro)!
-----------------------------
http://soundcloud.com/bballs
Alert moderator
|
Ukronic
Junior Member
Denmark
89 posts
Joined: Sep, 2009
|
Posted - 2010/02/18 : 12:55:12
what about reduce the kick with compressor?? is it needed ? (vengeance kicks)
Alert moderator
|
Audio Warfare
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,047 posts
Joined: Mar, 2009
|
Posted - 2010/02/18 : 13:37:40
I generally compress my kicks but it depends on the kick I guess. The VEC kicks would have already been compressed so may not need it. It's really a case by case thing.
quote:
Originally posted by acidfluxxbass:
also at work bored, so I'll explain how I operate.
I try to use the low kick and high kick either side of the bass, which is cut off at about 80hz and then spikes a lil on the high end.
Are you saying you low cut your bass from 80hz? I really wouldn't do that man. The sub bass levels on an off beat bass should really be level with the kick (although the kick is louder in overall db). If anything I give it a little boost around 60(ISH) but generally it doesn't need it if you have your sub layer loud enough.
If the low end on the kick and bass isnt level then the track will have very little power on the dancefloor. You may not notice it much listening at home but stick it on a big soundsystem and it will be very apparent.
quote:
Originally posted by Dante:
(thanks gaz ;)).
's alright. ;)
__________________________________
Listen to released and forthcoming Audio Warfare/Audio Weaponry tunes here:-
http://soundcloud.com/audio-warfare
Alert moderator
Edited by - Audio Warfare on 2010/02/18 13:49:15 |
DJ Rhythmics
Junior Member
United States
130 posts
Joined: May, 2009
|
Posted - 2010/02/18 : 20:28:24
Completely disagree with that first post O_o cutting the mids between 150-1000 is laughable imo!
- If you are using Vengeance kicks (or most sampled kicks), there is little need to modify them. They are specially built to easily fit in your mix. AT MOST, add a *bit* of compression, but I know for a fact that Vengeance kicks are already compressed, so don't go crazy with it!
- Like AW said, its VERY important that not only your kick is cut to fit the appropriate space it should take up (it should end right before the off bass), but that you make sure it hits right when the beat starts! Even the slightest gap or delay in its trigger can have some real odd effects on the track!
- Like everything else in your mix, EQ on your off bass will always depend on the mix (There is no formula), but a good rule of thumb that was taught to me is to bounce both your kick and off bass, high pass at 100hz, and give it a listen. Are the kick and bass balanced? If so, you should be good.
From my experience with the nitty gritty of things, the best advice I can give is to use your ears. If you think it sounds good, go for it. Just keep this rule in mind: Make Space! If your sounds are barely breathing through the mix, you're doing it wrong ;)
Alert moderator
|
Audio Warfare
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,047 posts
Joined: Mar, 2009
|
Posted - 2010/02/18 : 20:41:20
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Rhythmics:
a good rule of thumb that was taught to me is to bounce both your kick and off bass, high pass at 100hz, and give it a listen. Are the kick and bass balanced? If so, you should be good.
That's a good tip man. I always use a spectrum analyser (and my ears of course) but might give this a try.
__________________________________
Listen to released and forthcoming Audio Warfare/Audio Weaponry tunes here:-
http://soundcloud.com/audio-warfare
Alert moderator
|
Citrick
Average Member
Ireland
234 posts
Joined: Jan, 2009
|
Posted - 2010/02/19 : 00:13:17
Awesome topic guys!
*hugs happyhardcore.com*
__________________________________
::::::::::::::::: Kev ::::::::::::::::::
Alert moderator
|
roundhead711
Average Member
United Kingdom
162 posts
Joined: Dec, 2006
|
Posted - 2010/02/19 : 00:25:35
Anyone fancy telling me what levels i need to change in this.........?
You'll have a field day as i made it with a pair of pc speakers ;)
http://www.mediafire.com/?jmjtlgwgiig
Alert moderator
|
Hard2Get
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
12,837 posts
Joined: Jun, 2001
|
Posted - 2010/02/19 : 01:58:48
The kick is quite alot louder than everything else so you need to start by turning that down :>
Alert moderator
|
milo
Advanced Member
Canada
3,391 posts
Joined: Sep, 2001
347 hardcore releases
|
Posted - 2010/02/19 : 03:24:12
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Rhythmics:
- Like everything else in your mix, EQ on your off bass will always depend on the mix (There is no formula), but a good rule of thumb that was taught to me is to bounce both your kick and off bass, high pass at 100hz, and give it a listen. Are the kick and bass balanced? If so, you should be good.
*cough* where did you learn that one, rhythmics? *cough*
__________________________________
http://milo.happyhardcore.com
HappyHardcore.com/North American Hardcore Movement/Totally Sweet Radio/Hardcore Street Team
Alert moderator
|
DJ Rhythmics
Junior Member
United States
130 posts
Joined: May, 2009
|
Posted - 2010/02/19 : 03:57:45
Well I could name drop but I'm not gay like that :P
Alert moderator
|
Quicksilver
Advanced Member
Sweden
2,545 posts
Joined: Jul, 2007
|
Posted - 2011/08/13 : 22:48:51
Sorry for reviving such an old thread, but it came up on my search...
Rhythmics says to not add any effects except possible compression on the kicks, but say I put my kick to -7 dB without effects and everything else at below that or close to -7, the kick gets drowned out. It's like I would have to send everything but the kick to like -12 dB or something for it to cut through nicely but that doesn't seem right? That would make for a very quiet track, no? I don't use a lot of effects on my stuff, depending on the sound I'll tweak EQ (mostly cutting the low end stuff for leads and special sounds), add some compression to percussion and if needed on synths, reverb, delay, flangers and so on.
How do I make a hard hitting Vengeance kick cut through without effects? I usually resort to slapping a slight limiter on it, but I suspect that's wrong even if it makes the kick cut through? (I learnt this from KevWillow's tutorial, lol)
__________________________________
a.k.a. Phaaze
My SOUNDCLOUD
Alert moderator
|
Hard2Get
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
12,837 posts
Joined: Jun, 2001
|
Posted - 2011/08/13 : 23:05:17
A limiter is just a dynamic proccessor, it's not an effect, so what you're saying dosn't apply here. It really helps to learn why you're told not to use effects. Mainly it's because the kick, at least in the case of Hardcore, should be right at the front of the mix, and adding things like reverb, unless done skillfully pushes it back in the mix. Otherwise do whatever the hell you like. Once you understand what part the instrument your effecting plays in the mix then you can decide for yourself wether it is right or wrong to add any effects or signal processing. Nothing is ever generally 'wrong', it is based entirely on the context. People are told not to do things as a general starting point, but once you understand why you shouldn't then it no longer applies.
If you're kick is too quiet however then yes the best place to start is by turning everything else down (assuming the kick is going to be the loudest thing in the mix). There is no need to complicate things. If the relative volume of the kick is not the problem then you need to find out why. So either find a new kick accordingly or change the one you have so that it does cut through. Using a signal proccessor to address a fundamental problem with a sound should be a last resort.
Alert moderator
Edited by - Hard2Get on 2011/08/13 23:14:10 |
Printer friendly
