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 Music discussion - hardcore
 

Help Wanted Identifying POSSIBLE HU Sound Problems

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Impulse_Response
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United States
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Posted - 2019/06/29 :  04:43:10  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit Impulse_Response's homepage  Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by CDJay:
I'm actually very interested in investigating this, as I've been hugely disadvantaged by not having my stereo /ht room since May 18. I'm actually listening to tracks now and forcefully remember the agonising t-racks brickwalling hell of the mid nougties. I find it amusing that even with obvious production standards disparity hu1 is infinitely more pleasant at volume than Clubland Xtreme 😂

Why did UK Hardcore decide to pick ear shattering over dynamics when every other genre was doing the opposite ? I swear people were still doing it when ITunes put something in to reduce overall volume when presented with such a thing. If there's something our end I will resolve but what I sent you was prior to upload (DAT sourced). Have it all is interasni believe I chose the "Sound oh Happycore" sources variant over the latter supplied one. Pretty sure I supplied that to Hixxy for that recent Happy Hardcore album as it seemed the best version. As I keep saying these bundles are fluid and ever evolving, a feedback is genuinely useful and welcomed!

CDJay



I hope you're letting yourself get some sleep tonight! Isn't it getting close to morning there?


__________________________________
Producers and record labels, please stop "loudness war" mastering everything. It sounds terrible.


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CDJay
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Posted - 2019/06/29 :  04:53:25  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit CDJay's homepage  Reply with quote
Darwin is flying back into BHX at 6:30 from Dublin. I'm on standby in case of (almost inevitable) train issues. I think I get off light, he set off before midday yesterday and won't get back to Hastings before midday today 😂

CDJay


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MusicILove
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Posted - 2019/06/29 :  05:20:03  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit MusicILove's homepage  Reply with quote
Interesting. I listened to the preview of the Ministry of sound album version of have it all in the ITunes Store and it?s not really there. There may be some but it?s very slight if it?s there. I?m wondering if the sound got noticed by ministry of sound or if the sound is mostly removed when they compress the files down to AAC. Do you know if you provided a mastered copy there may have been something in the mastering causing this. Clubland X-Treme hardcore 4 comes to mind in particular come running. I brought that album in 2015 after being used to the copy released on Junkbox. First time I played it within 2 seconds of come running starting I stopped it and went to YouTube and yep it wasn?t my disc it really was that bad.

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https://on.soundcloud.com/33G86


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MusicILove
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Posted - 2019/06/29 :  07:53:42  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit MusicILove's homepage  Reply with quote
Just Double checked on speakers. I can say the ministry of sound album sample is better. Can't pick out much of an issue.

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https://on.soundcloud.com/33G86




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MusicILove
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Posted - 2019/06/29 :  18:02:54  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit MusicILove's homepage  Reply with quote
More research done compressing the files to 192kbps AAC I can still hear the issue. Although slightly quieter I think. Maybe? Had a quick listen through some Vinylgroover and I can't hear anything wrong. I have listened a lot to Vinylgroover so I'm sure I would of noticed it. DJ Seduction - Destiny is on YouTube and I can't hear any issues. @Impulse_Response can you have a listen to this YouTube link and report back?

I don't think this is an issue with just the 90s DAT's or the website as the file you sent me had the same issue & the 24/7 hardcore releases have it to. Hoping this helps you narrow it down and that it's an easy fix. If you need some testing ears I'm happy to help.


__________________________________
Check out Music I Love's Mixes on #SoundCloud
https://on.soundcloud.com/33G86


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LeVzi
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2019/06/30 :  08:23:12  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit LeVzi's homepage  Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by CDJay:
I'm actually very interested in investigating this, as I've been hugely disadvantaged by not having my stereo /ht room since May 18. I'm actually listening to tracks now and forcefully remember the agonising t-racks brickwalling hell of the mid nougties. I find it amusing that even with obvious production standards disparity hu1 is infinitely more pleasant at volume than Clubland Xtreme 😂

Why did UK Hardcore decide to pick ear shattering over dynamics when every other genre was doing the opposite ? I swear people were still doing it when ITunes put something in to reduce overall volume when presented with such a thing. If there's something our end I will resolve but what I sent you was prior to upload (DAT sourced). Have it all is interesting as i believe we chose the "Sound Of Happycore" sourced variant over the latter supplied one. Pretty sure I supplied that to Hixxy for that recent Happy Hardcore album as it seemed the best version. As I keep saying these bundles are fluid and ever evolving, all feedback is genuinely useful and welcomed! Together we'll get these things borderline tolerable to listen to! 😉

CDJay



Fking T Racks presets !!!!


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Impulse_Response
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Posted - 2019/07/01 :  02:12:07  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit Impulse_Response's homepage  Reply with quote
I did a quick analysis on the Destiny track linked above (I didn't hear any clipping in the youtube video). My conclusion: a problem with the source file and nothing wrong on HU's end. Probably clipping burned into the file by intersample peaks going way above full scale. Likely root cause is loudness war mastering, as is my usual complaint, but something goofy is going on in this particular case.

I loaded the DJ Seduction - Destiny from Storm's 24/7 bundle into Reaper. I used a true peak meter to check peak values and the TT DR meter to approximate overall dynamics. The track immediately jumps up to sample values of 0 dBfs (loudest possible digital level) from the very beginning of the song. The true peak (intersample value) goes all the way up to +5.6 dBfs!! The DR value hovers around 3 and the integrated RMS around -4.0 (ignore the screencap) which suggests that extreme compression was applied during mastering.

For comparison, I bought this track off of Beatport and ran the same analyses. The DR value and integrated RMS were the same as for the bundle version, but the true peak values were much lower, at only 2.0 dBfs. This is a pretty typical value for a hardcore release and it doesn't usually cause clipping on my end.

I'm surprised. They both have the same RMS values, overall dynamics, and perceived loudness (according to my ears) but the one from the 24/7 bundle has true peaks that go 3.6 dB higher than on the Beatport download. How the hell does that happen?

I believe the cause of the clipping in the bundle version is the fact the true peak goes so freaking high. It likely burned damage permanently into the track, and if that's correct then the only way to fix it is locate a different master or remaster at lower levels. Whether this is the problem in this case or not, a good idea going forward is for mastering engineers to add true peak meters into their workflows and not let the true peak level go above -1.0 dBfs, as recommended by Ian Shepherd.

Reference images below. Ignore the difference in integrated RMS; I double-checked and it hovered around -4.0 for both versions.


Reference images 24/7 Bundle:

https://imgur.com/T6nAtxf
https://imgur.com/oVkzeg3


Reference images Beatport download:

https://imgur.com/lCoqBN0
https://imgur.com/61SNY9s



__________________________________
Producers and record labels, please stop "loudness war" mastering everything. It sounds terrible.


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Edited by - Impulse_Response on 2019/07/01 02:15:44
MusicILove
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Posted - 2019/07/01 :  10:38:47  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit MusicILove's homepage  Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Impulse_Response:
I did a quick analysis on the Destiny track linked above (I didn't hear any clipping in the youtube video). My conclusion: a problem with the source file and nothing wrong on HU's end. Probably clipping burned into the file by intersample peaks going way above full scale. Likely root cause is loudness war mastering, as is my usual complaint, but something goofy is going on in this particular case.

I loaded the DJ Seduction - Destiny from Storm's 24/7 bundle into Reaper. I used a true peak meter to check peak values and the TT DR meter to approximate overall dynamics. The track immediately jumps up to sample values of 0 dBfs (loudest possible digital level) from the very beginning of the song. The true peak (intersample value) goes all the way up to +5.6 dBfs!! The DR value hovers around 3 and the integrated RMS around -4.0 (ignore the screencap) which suggests that extreme compression was applied during mastering.

For comparison, I bought this track off of Beatport and ran the same analyses. The DR value and integrated RMS were the same as for the bundle version, but the true peak values were much lower, at only 2.0 dBfs. This is a pretty typical value for a hardcore release and it doesn't usually cause clipping on my end.

I'm surprised. They both have the same RMS values, overall dynamics, and perceived loudness (according to my ears) but the one from the 24/7 bundle has true peaks that go 3.6 dB higher than on the Beatport download. How the hell does that happen?

I believe the cause of the clipping in the bundle version is the fact the true peak goes so freaking high. It likely burned damage permanently into the track, and if that's correct then the only way to fix it is locate a different master or remaster at lower levels. Whether this is the problem in this case or not, a good idea going forward is for mastering engineers to add true peak meters into their workflows and not let the true peak level go above -1.0 dBfs, as recommended by Ian Shepherd.

Reference images below. Ignore the difference in integrated RMS; I double-checked and it hovered around -4.0 for both versions.


Reference images 24/7 Bundle:

https://imgur.com/T6nAtxf
https://imgur.com/oVkzeg3


Reference images Beatport download:

https://imgur.com/lCoqBN0
https://imgur.com/61SNY9s




Thank you for your investigating.
I hope they can remaster and fix these issues. It's a little disappointing when you can buy better quality versions on Beatport or on the Just Another Label Store. I thought these were so post to be the best possible source. I think they need to look at everything since the first Just another label batch because that seems to be where things start to go wrong. I purchased the mp3 versions of what I wanted from the Just Another Label store and I'm going to stick to them for the moment. I didn't have much 24/7 Hardcore so that's why I brought the bundle although I probably should of just gone and brought the individual tracks I wanted. I will hold out re-buying them in hopes we get a fix.


__________________________________
Check out Music I Love's Mixes on #SoundCloud
https://on.soundcloud.com/33G86


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CDJay
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Posted - 2019/07/01 :  11:34:17  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit CDJay's homepage  Reply with quote
Any issues that can be fixed, will be. We're already checking supplied variants, mastered variants pre and post upload.

CDJay


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Http://www.hardcoreunderground.co.uk




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Impulse_Response
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Posted - 2019/07/01 :  22:15:23  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit Impulse_Response's homepage  Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by MusicILove:
Thank you for your investigating.
I hope they can remaster and fix these issues. It's a little disappointing when you can buy better quality versions on Beatport or on the Just Another Label Store. I thought these were so post to be the best possible source. I think they need to look at everything since the first Just another label batch because that seems to be where things start to go wrong. I purchased the mp3 versions of what I wanted from the Just Another Label store and I'm going to stick to them for the moment. I didn't have much 24/7 Hardcore so that's why I brought the bundle although I probably should of just gone and brought the individual tracks I wanted. I will hold out re-buying them in hopes we get a fix.



I hope my findings don't cause any harm to HU or make them lose business. Especially because I'm just an audio enthusiast and not a professional, so I could be completely wrong. Maybe I shouldn't have posted this here.



__________________________________
Producers and record labels, please stop "loudness war" mastering everything. It sounds terrible.


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Edited by - Impulse_Response on 2019/07/01 22:15:42
MusicILove
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Posted - 2019/07/01 :  22:37:52  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit MusicILove's homepage  Reply with quote
I don?t think it would cause harm. In fact I think it does them good because they have said they will fix what they can. If you buy a track off somewhere like Beatport with issues 99% of the time if you report an issue they will just refund you and sell the file to the next person. The same again and again. Whereas HU have shown you can buy with confidence knowing that if there are problems it might take a while but there system means if they fix things or get a better quality file you get that better quality passed on to you. It will be even better when their website shows you if anything is new.

__________________________________
Check out Music I Love's Mixes on #SoundCloud
https://on.soundcloud.com/33G86


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MusicILove
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Posted - 2019/07/23 :  17:56:07  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit MusicILove's homepage  Reply with quote
Any Updates?
Just to clarify with the 90s tracks I can only hear it in the right side.
Also the new Vinylgroover tracks don't exhibit the issues.
On the Ministry of sound album have it all seems to have had its higher frequencies quietened perhaps they spotted it. Thats what I can tell from the iTunes preview.


__________________________________
Check out Music I Love's Mixes on #SoundCloud
https://on.soundcloud.com/33G86


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Edited by - MusicILove on 2019/07/23 18:22:04
Mickey Init
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Posted - 2019/07/24 :  21:21:51  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit Mickey Init's homepage  Reply with quote
Question for you Thumpa...

Looking to buy some pre-2000 happy hardcore tracks digitally (Impact, Quosh etc, even some Cocooma tracks) and wanted to know, in a nutshell, 320kbps or WAV?

2000-2019 tunes I?m more than happy with 320 but have doubts with earlier tunes.


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"Like bread to marmalade... Vinylgroover with the crossfade!" - MC Freestyle


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Samination
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Posted - 2019/07/25 :  04:25:16  Show profile  Send a private message  Visit Samination's homepage  Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mickey Init:
Question for you Thumpa...

Looking to buy some pre-2000 happy hardcore tracks digitally (Impact, Quosh etc, even some Cocooma tracks) and wanted to know, in a nutshell, 320kbps or WAV?

2000-2019 tunes I?m more than happy with 320 but have doubts with earlier tunes.



Just ignore Thumpa. Seems like he's been in a trolling mood for more than a year now


__________________________________
---------------------------------------------
Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
---------------------------------------------


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DJ Bounce
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Posted - 2019/07/25 :  08:45:15  Show profile View artist profile  Send a private message  Visit DJ Bounce's homepage  Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mickey Init:
Question for you Thumpa...

Looking to buy some pre-2000 happy hardcore tracks digitally (Impact, Quosh etc, even some Cocooma tracks) and wanted to know, in a nutshell, 320kbps or WAV?

2000-2019 tunes I?m more than happy with 320 but have doubts with earlier tunes.



Why would you not just go for the best quality file regardless of age? MP3 files are never going to be lossless.


__________________________________
Check out my Spotify @ https://spoti.fi/32t5Lvx


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